Influencer Marketing in B2B

Unpack the intricacies of B2B Influencer Marketing with insights straight from the experts. In this conversation, hear from leading figures as they dissect the true value of B2B influencers, the power of authenticity, effective content creation strategies, and much more. Whether you're a seasoned marketer or new to the B2B space, this discussion offers invaluable perspectives on leveraging influencers to maximise your brand's reach and resonance.

Guests

Tim Bond, Founder at TechPros

Alvin Gunputh, Social Media Lead for Thredd

Emily Barker, Social Media Manager for RSK Group

Tamsin Richendoller-Hill, Social Media Lead for R3

Joaquin Dominguez - [00:00 - 00:10]

Let's do a quick round of introductions. I can start. Um, I 'm Joaquin Dominguez dou, I'm the head of marketing for, um, Tom, Tom Gatten - [00:10 - 00:13]

my Name, my name's Tom Gatten, and I'm the CEO of Adzact.

Tim Bond - [00:13 - 00:33]

Hi everyone. I'm Tim Bond, founder of Techpros.io. We are a community and a platform of enterprise, uh, thought leaders covering a range of industries and we produce content, um, which, uh, hopefully enlightens the readers and helps 'em with their career development.

Romi Badaloo - [00:33 - 00:44]

Hello, I'm Romi Badaloo. I am a marketing and communications consultant. Um, and I've most worked recently worked with EY and Kingfisher.

Tamsin - [00:44 - 00:57]

I'm Tamsin. I'm content marketing and communications lead for R three, which is an enterprise blockchain distributed ledger technology services firm. So work a lot within the financial services world as well.

Alvin - [00:57 - 01:03]

Hi guys, I'm Alvin. I'm the social media lead for a company called Thread. We are a FinTech who specialize in the payment space.

Joaquin Dominguez - [01:03 - 01:07]

Thank you, Alvin. Um, Emily?

Emily - [01:07 - 01:17]

Hi guys. I am a social media manager. I'm trainer at R R S K group, which, um, is essentially a company that is globally, works globally in sustainable solutions.

Joaquin Dominguez - [01:17 - 03:48]

Well, thank you so much. Thank you so much for coming today. Um, we will start now, uh, our podcast, um, very welcome to our influencer marketing in, in B two B podcast. Today we are focusing on those, uh, who sway opinions and trends ... Influencers um, they're not just celebrities, they're experts, they're content creators and, and more so why they matter, um, because they're trusted voices in their fields. So whether it's for entertainment solving problems or sharing expertise, um, we'll discuss also what makes them stand out. So probably their unique tone of voice, individuality, credibility, and how this builds trust and, and also how this forms a connection with their audience. So influencers are everywhere. Apparently. They're really effective. So in B2C marketing, we can see them on social media, from social media platforms to television, from micro influencers to brand ambassadors like Roger Feder or George Clooney. But today's focus is on B two B influencers. Um, and for our conversation, um, the definition that we are using is basically everyone that influences an audience. Okay. We are not limiting ourselves to event speakers. Um, we are delving into people that work for our company, uh, customers, prospects, and and many others. So we will discuss different uses, um, like the generation, for example, um, how to create content with influencers, how to approach them. And finally, we will discuss how to measure success. So Tamsin, uh, maybe I would like to start with you because you described, um, and this is, I would like to start with, with B two B marketing. So you describe B two B marketing as a psychological game, um, in this game. I assume you rely on emotions, um, and, and engaging with businesses probably is, is more complex than than consumers. Joaquin Dominguez - [03:48 - 03:56]

So could could you talk a little bit, uh, about what we discussed about, um, about this psychological game Tamsin - [03:56 - 04:53]

I think, yeah, I think it was sort of more psychological and complex in the sense that when you think of B two C, you are kind of just, you've got the product, you hand it over to them, whereas when you're working with B two B, you always need to think of the end game and what the business you are selling to, what their customers are needing. So it's about understanding the overall strategy and the mission of the businesses you are trying to sell to. And then through that you've got to then switch your own marketing tactics to help that strategy. That's both your strategy, the other business's strategy, and then the end customer. So there's just a lot of moving parts that I think a lot of people don't actually think about when it comes to B two B marketing. When people think of marketing, they just think of B two C. Someone sees something on, you know, a screen or they read something, they're gonna buy something. But it's just a lot more complex. You've just got to think about how the customers are going to react at the end after you've spoken to a plethora of other businesses.

Joaquin Dominguez - [04:53 - 05:36]

Yeah, I agree. At the end, you're making an impact on someone else's professional career, right? Yeah. You take a decision could be really good, but also could, could be really, really good, but also really bad. Um, Emily, um, you, you have expertise training senior leadership teams, um, on the use of, uh, professional profiles. So your experience also is really, really useful for to this part of the conversation. So do, do they use their professional profiles to share information? Is it, is this because they need to rely on emotions again, as I asked before?

Emily - [05:36 - 05:40]

So do you mean sharing information with their personal profiles?

Joaquin Dominguez - [05:40 - 05:40]

Exactly.

Emily - [05:40 - 06:08]

Yeah. So we tend to, if we can obtain a bit of buy-in from a senior lead team, 'cause it tends to be the demographic that usually sit in those roles tend to be people who are a little bit more reluctant to put themselves out there on social media, um, so to speak. Um, but yeah, so we kind of tend to focus more on those people who are higher up in terms of providing that training and upskilling them to represent the business in terms of that respect. Emily - [06:08 - 07:23]

So we focus a lot on really utilizing them to be more of a reach for our message at R SS K. So we do do a lot of work around actually giving them information around our initiatives and what we are doing and what our goals are and our str strategic goals are as well, so they can kind of move those forward on our behalf. Especially because a lot of these will sit in industries that we're working in. So for example, we have, um, a really prominent, um, influencer phase. Micro influencer has around 18 K followers on LinkedIn. Um, and he sits in the construction industry and he, he does really well for himself within that industry. So he obviously talks about, he's, he's an employee of R sk? Yes. Yeah, he is. Yeah. So he, um, he actually originally came to me for support with the actual business page, but then he, he moved into actually becoming more of the influencer side of it. So he was able to talk about his own insight and then also plug R ss K as well. So we kind of provide that training and support on what information they should be putting out. So ensuring they're aligning with our tone of voice and our messaging. Um, so that's kind of how we, we leave that out. So it just, it's like they're an extension of our brand and because they work for us, they're so invested in the brand and that comes from our company culture in-house as well, which helps drive that.

Joaquin Dominguez - [07:23 - 07:39]

And that's a, the, the, the tone of tone of voice, uh, challenge is, is, is even more challenging for you because under R S K you have, I don't remember like 200 companies under the, the umbrella of the, the company.

Emily - [07:39 - 08:17]

Yeah. So we encourage a lot. We, we do encourage a lot of authenticity. We do encourage them to kind of be themselves 'cause that's what people buy into. So as long and we do, we, we do kind of keep an eye on what the content is they're putting out there and we will realign them if we feel it's going off the mark. But a lot of the place that we tend to focus is on LinkedIn, so people tend to just have that little bit of extra filter anyway 'cause they know it's a professional platform. So we do actually encourage more of that, you know, if, if people are buying into your authenticity, then we want you to do that. We just wanna make sure that your, our messaging is jumping on the back of that in a way.

Joaquin Dominguez - [08:17 - 08:30]

Brilliant. Alvin you, you, well in the, in the previous podcast, um, you told us about the importance of test learning repeat, right?

Alvin - [08:30 - 10:17]

And, and also, uh, that involved, um, classic marketing a t l campaigns is is also influencer marketing on, on your plans is something that you're doing or planning Y Well, planning within our current position always, you know, we're always looking to experiment with, with new options that are available to us in terms of kind of influencers. To echo Emily's point, if you want a cost effective solution to activating influencer marketing, you have to start in-house. I think that is probably your your best place to start in terms of kind of understanding how that might work for you guys. And especially when you've got the people in-house with the expertise. And when we speak about the kind of tone of voice you might lose that when you may look for additional influencers within the market, you just might lose that kind of connection because they might not necessarily kind of understand fully what the brand is all about. Where if you can, like, again, what Emily said, if you can train people in house and utilize them and their own networks, you are in a much better position to go after the people who are already interested in your product and your target market. You know, it's a, it takes a lot to kind of understand as well. Well what are the, who are the audiences you wanna go after? If you wanna to go after an audience that you're currently not targeting, then yeah, we may look at other influencers who are doing well in the space. But I would always advocate to start with, you know, internally employee advocacy first and try and train them and teach 'em and educate them to almost be their own micro influencers. And even better if they're, if they're at a C-suite level, which is what we are doing, you know, we're working with our kind of senior people here to become influencers, you know, supporting them from a PR aspect to marketing, to social, to blogs. Alvin - [10:17 - 10:26]

If we're covering all those different facets, we are almost creating our own influencer team in house, which, you know, takes half the time and much cheaper as well.

Joaquin Dominguez - [10:26 - 12:07]

Brilliant. So let's, let's talk about how we can use our influencers, whether they are internal or external. Um, for example, classic example could be engaging with an external influencer and asking them to run a webinar. So immediately you go after their audience and you, you convert them probably as leads, uh, for, for your business or creating top of the funnel, uh, content. So you can record a conversation with a client and then you can use that as a marketing asset to promote it on, on your social media or engaging employees with content. For example, we, we had the experience of interacting with, um, with an ex external influencer last year, a YouTuber. And we collaborate with our data science team and usually it's not very easy to collaborate with them, uh, because they're super busy and if you ask them to write a white paper for example, probably they don't have time to do so. However, working with an external influencer, it was an experience that you noticed that they enjoyed a lot. They collaborated on, on the script of the, of the video that this YouTuber created. And well, examples like, like, like those. If, if you could tell me, um, maybe Romy that you have experienced with consultants, um, tell me how, how it is promoting the same report that, that a company promotes than working with, with, with the consultants and um, something like that.

Romi Badaloo - [12:07 - 13:57]

Yeah, sure. Um, so I agree with a lot of what's being said. Um, in terms of the objectives with influencer marketing in B two B are a lot less tangible. Um, we tend to focus a lot more on creating thought leadership content, um, and also looking at how we can use people within a business to put value out there that adds to the brand's credibility ability. Um, so one example that, um, I can talk about is a recent white paper that was being launched within professional services, um, where we decided to use internal, um, leaders as influencers, um, to kind of leverage their LinkedIn profiles. Um, looking at what aspects of the report are relevant for each individual leader's audience. Um, all of them had different topics and areas of expertise, um, as consultants. Um, so we drew on different facts and statistics from that report and then used that to create a, um, kind of personalized LinkedIn article for them. So working closely between the leaders and the marketing team to draft these, um, LinkedIn articles that were then posted in a staggered way. Um, and actually when we had a look at the metrics, we could see that the leaders using their own personal networks, the content and the engagement with the, um, end content that was the report was actually higher, um, than posting through the company's page. Um, and promoting it on the, the LinkedIn company pages.

Tom Gatten - [13:57 - 14:20]

Why do we, why do we have to use internal people in B two B? Like in B two C you can get Larry David to promote, you know, what was it called crypto.com or the, the other one that went bust, you know, at the Super Bowl. And it's this, you know, they've got, they're a person they can kind of promote to their own network. Why do we do that in b2b? Yeah, maybe All B2B celebrities.

Romi Badaloo - [14:20 - 14:53]

I dunno, I Don't think we have to use, um, internal influences when it comes to B two B. I just think that the, um, the people with the relevant audience are less obvious when it comes to certain industries. Um, so it would take a bit more digging, a bit more research to find the people with the right audience, um, and also to be promoting the, the company's information. But I definitely think it's an area that has a lot of room for potential growth in the future.

Alvin - [14:53 - 15:46]

I was gonna say, it actually comes back to a point that Tamsin was mentioned at the start about kind of psychology as well. I feel like there's a lot more pressure in the B two B market in terms of both sides, in terms of the people who are sending out the message in terms of the people who need to make the decision in buying whatever product or service it is. There is a lot of pressure from that person who needs to sell. And there's a lot of pressure on that person who's taking on the product and service as well. The kind of the procurement kind of side of things as well. And that journey they have to go through internally. It's not a decision sometimes that you can just make in an instant. So I think there's a lot of emotional, psychological and pressurized factors, which is why it differs from B two C influences and B two B influences. And that's why I think when we say, say we start in-house, it's because, you know, the, you these people are used to dealing with those pressures and understand the mechanics of how that kind of our product or our brand might operate.

Romi Badaloo - [15:46 - 16:35]

Yeah. Another reason I agree with you completely, um, another reason is that with B two B, often they are, um, part of the product that they're selling or the service is the expertise of the people. So the kind of, by using them as internal influencers, you are showcasing the expertise that exists within the business, um, which is part of the part of the package that you're trying to sell. Um, if we are talking about professional services like consultants, lawyers, accountants, et cetera, um, we do want to promote the actual people themselves, which kind of you are negating the point if you, if you start using external influencers.

Tamsin - [16:35 - 17:11]

And I just want to add as well, when you are dealing with B two B or specific to my company, our main thought leaders and spokespeople, not only are they influencers from within the company, they're also using the sales negotiation process. So when you're thinking about bumping up the brand via social media with these internal evangelists and influencers, you want 'em to be at the forefront. And as you say as experts, that when it does come to that final customer negotiation, they're pulled into the negotiation. It just adds so much more credibility to selling the product. 'cause yeah, it's a complex process in B two B.

Tim Bond - [17:11 - 17:15]

They're just not total strangers basically.

Tamsin - [17:15 - 17:15]

Exactly.

Joaquin Dominguez - [17:15 - 17:39]

Yeah, Exactly. Well, Tim, maybe you can bring the, the other side of the coin, which is, uh, you, you, because your thought leadership is external, you're not dealing with internal influencers. So please tell us, uh, how prospects are, are influencers and why approaching them could be a really good way to understand the market, to understand your prospects problems.

Tim Bond - [17:39 - 19:14]

Definitely. So I think before getting into that, if I may, I think what's really interesting to me is I've seen LinkedIn evolve over the years into what is now almost a Facebook. I mean, I, all of you, I'm sure remember five or six years ago, I forget exactly how many years ago it was, is that, you know, LinkedIn didn't have this scrolling and this streaming and this constant and, and the kind of, the number of, of of people that, and the amount of time that they're spending on LinkedIn has just rocketed. So I think what's quite interesting is this whole, even this sort of concept of B two B influencing really has only come about recently because my view, uh, yes, there's Twitter for sure, but that's really more consumer orientated, but it's only recently come about. So for me, this conversation is fascinating because it's, it's new and it's exciting and it's like, how's it, how's it evolving to sort of get into answering your question wakin? So, so so traditionally, um, I've come from a kind of, uh, well, initially it was recruitment prior, prior to that it was, it was sort of sales lead generation using LinkedIn. And very quickly it became obvious as LinkedIn developed that LinkedIn is not a platform for, for selling. It's a, it's a platform for learning, it's a platform for sharing, it's a platform con for connecting. And about five years ago we thought, well, a great way to build relationships with buyers is instead of reaching out to them saying, Hey, look, we've gotten a great product or great service, why don't we have a chat? You know, and there's still a lot of that going on if spammy stu and a lot of it's now moved to email, but to actually go out to people and say, look, um, you are, you are a particular, um, professional within this sector. Tim Bond - [19:14 - 20:50]

You are solving, solving similar problems to a number of other, um, professionals in your sector, your peers, your industry peers come together, let's come together, um, and uh, and work together on some content that could be a, um, a sort of an ebook. It could be, um, what we call market view publications or, or other content. Um, and by doing that, they're in a position to, uh, share their thoughts and ideas on this particular topic and learn from their colleagues, from their industry colleagues as well. So we found that actually the, the kind of conversions in terms of people showing interest in having a conversation about a product or a service was way, way lower than why don't you have a conversation about what's going on in the industry? And, um, so we, yeah, we've been, we've been doing this for a few years and we, going back to the kind of the influencer factor, the outcome of this for our sponsors and our clients, uh, not only they get to build relationships with people in their industry, of which a percentage of them could be interested in following commercial conversations. But also you've got this sort of the content asset, the, um, so the LinkedIn posts that can come off the back of that. And of course the fact that potentially up to, you know, a hundred people might have participated in one of these industry thought leadership programs, you know, they've enjoyed the experience, they get to elevate their own personal brands, and as a result of that, they're more than happy to share the content, uh, on LinkedIn, of course you get the multiplier effect. So, you know, I think it's one of many sort of strategies that involve content credibility, influencers and senior professionals within their sector in order to get your message out. Tim Bond - [20:50 - 20:53]

So that, that's kind of how, how, how how we operate.

Joaquin Dominguez - [20:53 - 21:21]

Tom, we were having a conversation just a couple of minutes ago with, with Guild, the Guilds founder, um, Gild is a platform to build communities. Do you think maybe that the next step after influencer marketing is community marketing? Uh, as, as as, as Tim was mentioning, you put people in front of their peers, basically what you're doing is creating a community. Do you think it's, uh, the future like that?

Tim Bond - [21:21 - 22:37]

Uh, Yeah. Uh, if I could just, just, just get, get another word, if that's okay. Yeah, I, I totally agree. And in fact, we, we actually, we, we call our, our sort of strap line now is community-based marketing off, off the back of what Ashley is, is doing with Guild. And I really love what they're doing. And I think, uh, just going back to this kind of evolution of, of LinkedIn and you know, how it's really more of kind of Facebook for business now is, is it's great for broadcasting, but for targeted engagement, it's kind of not so good. Whereas I think these new kind of, uh, professional communities that are evolving on the guild platform particularly, and there are others, are the opposite. It's not about broadcasting, it's about, you know, helping people. It's about engaging in, um, in interesting professional discussions that are with people who are in a very kind of similar, um, sort of pro, you know, professional category, so to speak. Mm-hmm. And I think that the more you can encourage clients, buyers, partners, associates, influences into a community and lead conversations on your category in a much smaller, intimate online community, I think, I think that's, again, it's a different sort of marketing approach, but it's one that I think is gonna become more and more popular.

Tom Gatten - [22:37 - 24:09]

It's, yeah, it's really interesting. I, I, I don't, I don't know whether it happens in, because in B two C you would, you would find someone that already has a community which is basically a subset of Instagram as job their followers, right? Or, you know, in Avon cosmetics you'd find people that had friends and could find more friends of friends of friends of, you know, create a kind of pyramid like that. Um, but I'm not sure that the, yeah, the equivalent of creating these bespoke communities just to discuss a certain topic would really work so well in B two C. Well, I guess chat rooms I guess are like that. But yeah, certainly, you know, the, the concept of creating a community around your theme full of your prospects who are talking about tangential stuff and getting value and basically being nurtured to replace a kind of newsletter that goes out once a month full of links sort of thing. It's a lovely idea. Although, as we were also discussing with Ashley, Ashley Friedland has started this company that aims to like replace WhatsApp for business. It's like the idea, but yeah, as we were discussing, it is very hard to create that. It's not, it might be zero cost, but it's a lot of time and effort and you need to get upwards of like 200, 300 people he reckons before it starts to become self-sustaining. 'cause only, like you said, 10% of the people produce 90% of the comments. So you've gotta have like 300 people before you have 30 people who are regularly engaging. Obviously it takes a lot of time.

Joaquin Dominguez - [24:09 - 25:13]

But Yeah, I to idea, To one point that Tim mentioned that maybe as I think is like, like this, that less is more sometimes, uh, and in communities maybe you need to put more thought on what you are saying or, or you can be more transparent maybe. Um, and, and you're really write in the community what what you really think is more authentic. And we had discussion last week with, with someone from Korn Ferry, he told us, I believe it's like, I don't remember the the exact phrase, but it was, I believe, uh, social media and LinkedIn is totally broken because it's so easy to share things. And if you listen to all the experts, they say you need to post every single day or every two days, but at the end you're not putting much more thought and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and the concept and maybe in the community is different, maybe in the community you're more authentic, you're solving someone else's questions.

Emily - [25:13 - 25:54]

But I dunno, well, can I Add, can I add answer that as well? I think, I think as this transcends across that community space and also just social media platforms in general, you always, it always comes back to needing that exchange of value that people need to take away something. So even though the authenticity is there, but like you say, so many people just follow kind of best practice with the algorithm, but they don't actually think about the content or how they're communicating that content to their target demographic. And it needs, even if it's a community space, it needs that exchange of value or people just won't, won't be in that space. They'll be like, I'm not gaining anything from being here, so I'm gonna go where this other place that's already taking my attention. And we're all aware that all these platforms are fighting for everyone's attention at all times.

Tom Gatten - [25:54 - 26:06]

Yeah, I'd be really interested to know how many LinkedIn comments, you know, the comments people write under posts are written by chat G p T 'cause they all look so generic. Yeah.

Tim Bond - [26:06 - 26:10]

Well this mostly People, It's mostly people complimenting people.

Tom Gatten - [26:10 - 26:11]

Exactly. Yeah.

Tim Bond - [26:11 - 26:13]

Yeah.

Joaquin Dominguez - [26:13 - 27:25]

So well let's come back into influencer marketing and, and maybe, let's see, with examples you've seen that work really well for those that are really bad, maybe like Tom mentioned, uh, like Chat GPT style of comment is definitely something that you don't want to see. Um, for example, I, I, a good example, I I I I saw was a company beyond encryption. They, the head of marketing interviews, the, their sales team every week and, and then posting those videos and, and, and, and, and as, as ads on LinkedIn. And the result of that was like she was every single week very connected with his audience. So he, he was using his sales team as influencers and because the, the sales team are, are way more connected with the audience than maybe the C-Suites, you know, and well, I thought it was a good example. Maybe you, you have more, more examples or case studies, uh, around this that you could share. Emily - [27:25 - 28:42]

Um, I, uh, I don't mind sharing about the, the person I mentioned just before, um, who is actually our associate director of business development as well. So he's really established himself well on that platform. And as I said, he started out just doing the business page, but he did quite quickly become almost the face of the brand because he was posting so much imagery with him in it and it was very much kind of, people were buying into him more than the brand as well. So then he obviously moved to kind of focus more on his personal profile. Um, but that's been so successful for him. But it has a lot of, it has come down to him really talking about his expertise, which comes back to the points, uh, the really valuable points everyone was making before about being at that forefront in that business space of the experts are here, educating, showcasing projects that the business are doing as well. Um, and that's what really gets that kind of interest from that B two, the businesses and that B two B area as well. Um, so him doing that and also driving our initiatives behind that with our hashtags and always tagging us. And we have our little mascot as well who's just sat behind me over here who we encourage. It's a little bear. Um, and it's, it sounds silly, but actually for some reason the photos of the bear do phenomenal on social media. I don't know, people just love teddy bears look be a psychological comfort thing perhaps.

Tom Gatten - [28:42 - 28:45]

So you're kind of Creating a teddy bear influencer?

Emily - [28:45 - 29:53]

Well, we were, we were, we were trying at one, but the, some of the senior leads were like, this might not be quite what we're trying, quite what we're trying to put out, but it, it does do really well. Um, but yeah, like really jumping, like I said before, jumping on the back of what he's doing, but him talking about the projects and he has this thing where he does like office office for the day or office on on site office or things like that where he posts on site what we're doing on the ground as well. So showing that groundwork and for someone to be an associate director of business development who's still going out and doing the groundwork. Like, it just, it really helps people connect to our business and our people within the business as well. Um, but yeah, he's, he's doing so well and scheduling on LinkedIn's definitely helped that as well, I'm sure. But engaging as well, like you were saying before, not just putting out, but also actively engaging with that community. So he's, um, and this came from the training a little bit, but he is very hot on with, he replies to comments with quite fruitful comment replies, you know, keeping that conversation going, telling the algorithm that this is good content, lots people are commenting. Um, so engaging with that community is almost, I would say 50% of the work in terms of when you're putting that stuff out there as an influencer. Yeah.

Romi Badaloo - [29:53 - 30:35]

Although it's still, um, although it's B two B people still do buy into, um, people and individuals and, um, their online personalities that come with that as well. Um, I was just going to say, I've seen the, um, newsletter feature on LinkedIn work quite well, um, for leaders that have engaged audiences already, um, just to put out, um, updates about what they're up to, um, industry updates behind the scenes type of content, um, and then communicate with their LinkedIn audience through this, um, newsletter subscription feature.

Tom Gatten - [30:35 - 30:37]

Mm-hmm.

Romi Badaloo - [30:37 - 30:46]

So, but I don't, I don't think it's, it works for everyone. I think it works for people that already have quite a built up engaged audience.

Tom Gatten - [30:46 - 31:49]

I think. I think that behind the scenes concept is, is something that could work quite well. Saw a video from, it's actually from ages ago, but Lockheed Martin did this thing where they created like a field trip to Mars for a group of school kids where they, like the, the bus just seems like their bus is full of, they turn into screens, like the windows of the bus turns into screens. So when the kids get on the school bus and then they're driving and they go through a tunnel and they come outta the tunnel and suddenly they're on Mars 'cause there're all the screens turned and they, but most of it was not like showing these kids really enjoying it going, yeah, we're remote, but then it was like interviewing the people behind it who'd done all the technology for it. And like, I mean, that was quite also, you seen like the zero campaign with Reese, what's his name? Guy from uh, fly to the Concord, Reese Darby, who's running a marathon and he goes running a marathon, running a business. It's like running a marathon in a desert. See that one? No But that's quite good.

Romi Badaloo - [31:49 - 32:23]

I think, I think people underestimate video content as well. It doesn't always have to be some corporate polished professional level, you know, with all the high tech cameras and everything, you can just have, you know, a c e o or or someone in the business whipping out their phone and doing a 32nd video update while they're walking to the train station or something. Um, so I've seen that kind of rough and ready, self filmed, um, 'cause people find it more authentic.

Tom Gatten - [32:23 - 32:24]

Absolutely.

Tamsin - [32:24 - 33:14]

Yeah. I was about to say we had a major product launch announcement and go to market plan and actually one of the most effective tactics was using our c t o doing a very rough and ready video series just so that we could get ahead of a certain or specific conversation which we wanted to break out in, into the market with. And that was our highest levels of engagement. And then you conti continue to like drip feed and nurture that specific content for a long time. Like video content is probably one of the best forms when you have an influencer with already a decent amount of following. Mm-hmm. But then it will just bump up their following even more. 'cause people see this person, as you say, people trust people more than they trust a product at the end of the day. So if the C T O or CS o is advocating for something or a conversation, people are gonna believe it more or want to believe it.

Tim Bond - [33:14 - 33:32]

I think what's interesting terms, and I I fully agree with you, it's, I I find it fascinating that everyone knows that video content is so high performing and it's so easy and it's so cheap and everyone appreciates that the rough and ready is the most authentic, but none of us are really doing it or not On why is it's hard, why is it?

Tamsin - [33:32 - 34:00]

And Instead people are sort of sitting down doing these sort of step-by-step step video frames, planning out spending loads of money on these corporate videos and they just flop most of the time even sort of filming webinars and pushing them out with salespeople, influencers, they also do just as amazing. And that's a webinar and video content. So that's two pieces of content rolled into one. I mean, it's just all about repurposing and recycling as well.

Joaquin Dominguez - [34:00 - 34:14]

Yeah, yeah. I think you as, as I mentioned before, this experience working with data sciences, perhaps if you ask them, okay, record a, a video, like a selfie video, they would say no. Yeah.

Tom Gatten - [34:14 - 34:26]

Our C T O would be Uhhuh like head of data science for example, would be terrified of that. Like just would not return my calls, not return my messages exactly. Pretend that I'm not asking him to do it.

Romi Badaloo - [34:26 - 34:40]

But If you ask him, it's very Dependent on, on people's personality sometimes and, and their level of comfortability with putting themself out there, um, which is not consistent with whatever level their role happens to be.

Joaquin Dominguez - [34:40 - 35:01]

Um, It's, It's just for them to, to be in a meeting with, with, with this YouTuber that is super interested to understand what the data science team is doing with transformers and whatever. Um, they are super happy to do so and then you record the conversation and you put it out there and That's getting two influencers together.

Tom Gatten - [35:01 - 35:08]

Basically you get an internal influencer with an external influencer, suddenly they're both actually giving you more than you'd ever get if you were to go to them directly.

Romi Badaloo - [35:08 - 35:22]

Maybe, Maybe that's the secret recipe, having a bit of collaboration with people who are super comfortable with content creation, um, getting them to collaborate with the leaders internally.

Alvin - [35:22 - 37:04]

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, that's something that we've tried here because obviously the payment space is quite niche when you think about it in terms of digital banking and elements like that. And very new for influencers. So the majority of influencers we see in our space are kind of come from a PR background or journalists and they're the ones who have the most clout, the, the most followers, the most engagement because they are firsthand in terms of breaking news topics, driving the discussions that kind of brands and marketers and salespeople and C-suites need to know. And also we are seeing kind of media brands and the, your event organizers become more of influencers. So they're the ones who are driving conversation then you're seeing companies like ourselves or people from our companies or similar to us kind of partnering up with those brands to say, well, you know, the whole point of using influencers or is to influence a new audience which you haven't currently got eyeballs on or tapped into at the moment. And you know, people who run events and people who are journalists who are quite prolific on kind of social media in this example. It's a good, good excuse to kind of tap into that and build a partnership to kind of leverage that. And that's something we've seen quite a lot in the FinTech space is, you know, brands working with kind of media brands who have got a good established following and whether that's a fireside chat, which is then trans, you know, transcribed into a blog, into video content, et cetera, et cetera. You know, it can almost almost stem from an event itself. So it's almost like we're gonna utilize this presenter at this event and host a fireside chat with them or try and become a guest on there and then use that as content and the kind of then you, like you were saying, you're using the best of both worlds, if that makes sense.

Joaquin Dominguez - [37:04 - 37:21]

Yeah, yeah. Tamsin you, you also had experience working with journalists, um, and, and also with like, uh, micro influencers, I don't know, like crypto you mentioned. Um, How was that, that experience, uh, and also how is the experience working with journalists?

Tamsin - [37:21 - 38:43]

I mean, so yeah, I also work very close with the PR function side of things and journalists nowadays are probably the, their external influencers that B two B marketers will probably get closest to. It is quite hard. We've already spoken about it. When you're dealing with a B two B brand, it's harder to find external influencers that will advocate to the brand, to the direct customers and help you actually sell. 'cause at the end of the day, you need to always keep the customer at the back of your mind because you do need to sell a product. Um, one time we did actually use an internal influencer on a YouTube video with an external influencer and it is just a lot harder to control. Similar with journalists, when internal influencers have interviews with journalists, it's a lot harder to control the brand and the message going out after compared to if you are just using internal advocacy, um, you will reach different and bigger audiences, which is great for brand awareness, but whether it's the right brand, that's another question. So you just need to be super careful about who you are selecting and whether it's gonna be the right message at the end of the day, especially if there's sensitivity surrounding certain customers and that kind of stuff. So it is just, it's harder, but I mean there's more risk and there's more benefits, so you've just got to weigh up pros and cons at the end of the day depending on who you are dealing with.

Joaquin Dominguez - [38:43 - 38:43]

Emily - [38:43 - 39:21]

With External influences like that in those respects, it's worth thinking about kind of those like influencer relations. So if you're gonna invest in this person externally, should that be a long-term strategy? So that like, and that's such a good point that you made then tamin about if as soon as you've kind of wrapped up what you're doing, are they gonna just move along and work along with another brand that perhaps doesn't align with you and that if people are bought into that influencer, they're gonna be like, oh, hang on a minute. Do these people really care that much if they've had that person who doesn't have that same brand message or is aligned with their kind of values? Um, so it's kind of thinking about if we're gonna do that externally, should that be something that's a long-term goal as well.

Alvin - [39:21 - 40:33]

Outside of that, I think on that point as well, it's, it's a good point that Ebony makes is make sure that if you are gonna work with an, in an influencer, you have an appropriate contract in place with the T's and C's and all the, you know, t's dotted and i's crossed so we know who owns the content, what happens if there is a breakdown, what's the kind of the clauses within the contract if mm-hmm you're not happy, for example, with what's supplied 'cause uh, it is something that you just think, oh, you just message 'em and they'll do something for us, it's, it's so much more advanced than when it first came about in the kind of ecosystem if you like. So I think I've seen that quite often where, you know, we've had working for p and o cruises when you would deal a lot with influencers on Instagram if you didn't have an appropriate contract in place. You know, a lot of these influencers at that time didn't really know that they had a contract. They just were kind of looking for, you know, a paid ad or paid media opportunity basically. So I think making sure everything's written down and you've even got, if you've got a legal team to get the legal team to check it where you can because it's more important now than ever Has, has anyone used, um, we were also, someone was telling us this morning about Analytica, which is apparently some sort of influencer platform, which I would assume does takes care of some of that.

Tom Gatten - [40:33 - 40:51]

Um, but there are probably, I mean I know there are others in certainly the B two C space of like, you know, they'll aggregate loads of influencers and they'll give you like a one stop shop to, does anyone look at that One on a Analytica, buzz, Sumo and Tracker with two A T R A A C K R?

Alvin - [40:51 - 41:39]

I've used, I think tribe before, again this was at p and o Cruiser, so B two C kind of based influencer and that was where they would have kind of influencers on their database and you could almost put a brief in and then they would kind of manage that for you and send the brief, almost like an agency really to be honest with you. But again, there's probably ones where they're more B two B focused, but it's not something we've looked at as of yet because I think it's more important for you now if you, especially in the B two B space to kind of do that identify identifying process yourself and kind as opposed to leaving it to an agency. Yeah. Just, it's just another step, isn't it really? Whereas you could kind of, if you're in on social and you know what you're looking for, you could probably do the research yourself or see the people who are Yeah. Appearing and making the impact yourself.

Joaquin Dominguez - [41:39 - 42:03]

Yeah. Coming back to, to the, to the content creation process, romi you, you, you have worked with, with internal and external influencers, uh, what would, what are the difference or nuances that you see working with one group and the other, for example, in in how involved they are with, with the, with the content creation process?

Romi Badaloo - [42:03 - 43:47]

Yeah, so I've mainly worked on, um, campaigns with internal influencers. Um, what I would say the difference is, um, them working with external is that, um, internal influencers do have, uh, an entire day job and they're very busy. So in terms of the evolve involvement from marketing and communications, they probably need a lot more done for them in terms of content creation and planning. Um, and they're more able to sign off on ideas, topics and drafts of content, et cetera. Um, whereas external influencers, um, they content creators as part of their career, so they're professionals at, they understand their audience, they're very, they're very much want to be involved in the ideation process. Um, looking at putting the brief together, um, having their input early on from the stage of drafting the brief and, and coming up with an agreement. Um, in terms of establishing those clear expectations and guidelines, um, as Alvin mentioned, the contract side of things is a lot more important with external influences, um, so that you know what you are getting out from them. Whereas with the internal influences, you can have a lot more input and kind of steer that towards your marketing objectives yourself as the marketer.

Joaquin Dominguez - [43:47 - 43:48]

Mm-hmm.

Romi Badaloo - [43:48 - 43:49]

is what I would say.

Joaquin Dominguez - [43:49 - 44:19]

And what about reaching out to external influencers? For example, in our case we are a startup we want to engage with a, with a top tier influencer you can invite him to, to the podcast. Do you have any, any kind of recommendations of how to approach the, like a super influencer because at the end they need organic content. Um, have you tried, uh, something like that? Uh, Tom maybe do you have a, any, any idea on this?

Tom Gatten - [44:19 - 45:23]

Um, well you've just done it I think Joaquin, haven't you? You've just done, so Quin, you were reading a book about basically the sorts of content that prospects want to read and then you reached out to this guy that had written, literally written the book that you were reading and said, come on a podcast with us podcast. I think the key, the key thing is can you offer them something that they want? So, I mean, very often the influencers actually want an audience and you don't necessarily have to pay them sometimes, like if, if they want to access the same audience that you are offering and you offer them a structure to do that, you know, not everyone has the time to make a video or has the resources to edit it, publish it, or a podcast or a white paper. So if you say, look what I, I can't, I'm not an influencer so I can't offer that you can offer that part of it, but I can offer you the infrastructure for actually producing the content and distributing it and promoting it. That's something that they often can't, don't have. So you can sometimes get it for free. 'cause if your interests align, you know?

Joaquin Dominguez - [45:23 - 45:40]

Yeah. If you want to pay him, probably it's impossible. Yeah. But I think in, in that case, another, another thing, the equation was that I invite, I told him that another, like a third party was using his, his strategy. So I think it was a good opportunity.

Tom Gatten - [45:40 - 45:44]

So it'll it'll form a case study. I mean that's massive better, isn't it?

Joaquin Dominguez - [45:44 - 45:44]

Exactly.

Tom Gatten - [45:44 - 45:51]

So the only thing They'll be on a call with someone who's saying, I've used your method and it's been really effective. I mean, Yeah.

Joaquin Dominguez - [45:51 - 45:59]

Yeah. That's Something we only Will do the link, the link between the author and the people that is using the strategy yeah.

Tom Gatten - [45:59 - 46:18]

And also you can sort of somewhat control what he, what he's gonna say. 'cause you know what he's gonna say. 'cause he's gonna talk about his own product, which is not, you know, maybe not exactly what you want, but it's, it's just good sometimes to be in the same room as someone influential Mm-hmm. Even if you don't talk about your product.

Alvin - [46:18 - 46:52]

I also don't think it's a bad thing to be kind of transparent in the fact that, you know, we, you could almost say, you know, if I was to approach it and say, look, we are trying to build our audience and uh, you know, if that's something that you're keen on doing as well, then together, you know, we can look to, you know, do a podcast or a video interview, which would help kind of leverage both our audience profiles mm-hmm. and also raise our profiles as well. I think there's then there doesn't need to be kind of smoke and mirrors around it sometimes I think we can just be direct and honest and say, look, we need to increase our, our followership, our readership Yeah. Whatever it is. And we think you're a great person to help us do that.

Tom Gatten - [46:52 - 47:47]

And likewise, it's, It's also just astonishing how open people are to contribute. And the problem mostly is that we don't ask people. I mean, I was, I was a journalist briefly and we used to reach out to people that you'd think would never, ever speak. And I, I, uh, spoke to the president of Georgia and interviewed them on the day that Russia was invading their countries back in like 2008 or something. But, um, the last, the last Russian war. Mm-hmm. But, you know, and this was like, you could hear the bombs going off in the background, you'd think there's no way the president of this country is gonna take an hour and a half to speak to a journalist whilst this country's being invaded. I mean, if you can and it, but it happened, so you can do that, then you can, you know, then you can definitely just ask people and they're remarkably willing to speak an extreme, take An action, but like getting these, uh, authentic videos done.

Tim Bond - [47:47 - 47:54]

Just gotta get on with it, ask the questions, make the videos, actions speak Out, explain that I, this is why I wanna speak with you.

Tom Gatten - [47:54 - 48:17]

And, and sometimes not offering money might help as well. If you, if you approach someone, you offer them money and says why I want you to speak about, they might be more suspicious or more ask more questions or be more difficult than if you say, just wanna really benefit our audience would really benefit your, your opinion bit of flattery, but not too much. You know, just ask them. Yeah.

Joaquin Dominguez - [48:17 - 49:06]

Well let's move into, into the last part, which is how do we measure success of our efforts, right? Whether it is interacting with a journalist or with a an influencer, we probably, we are investing our time or resources. Um, so what do you think is the best strategy, um, to do so? Um, many people believe in, in an always on strategy. So taking your budget, dividing it, every month thinly, um, and then looking for a return in a long term strategy or do you think this is a short term, uh, strategy? Please, uh, tell me what do you think Emily Romy, um, album?

Emily - [49:06 - 50:27]

Um, yeah, I think I actually think an always on strategy. Like we were saying before that that more of a heavy focus on like influencer relations. I think social media marketing in particular with my background, it is rarely kind of short-term gain. Obviously we do hear about people who do, you know, booms overnight and it does happen. But if you are doing this organically without kind of any paid behind it, then it is gonna be quite hard to have that immediate kind of r o i that you want. And it's gonna be quite difficult to even measure that in your analytical data as well without a kind of long term overview of, you know, bare minimum 90 days. Really. Um, I think short term is possible if it's kind of a campaign and you have the right influencer for the job, whether that's internal, external, um, but again, that's coming back to that person who is aligned and like Alvin was saying, having that contract in place so that they do move forward. Um, then you're making sure that they're not kind of discrediting your brand and your values after that as well. Um, so I do think kind of a, a long-term strategy I, I feel is, is much better in terms of when you are working with influencers and then there is that consistent exchange of value. And like you were saying before, I think, I think Thomas, you said it about, um, offering them that ongoing support as well, kind of, even if that's not payment, especially if you are in a business where that support is there and it is being, you know, it's already maybe you have the infrastructure of training sessions of resources that you can give to them. Emily - [50:27 - 51:03]

'cause that is just kind of that long-term gain. And then over time they kind of have the buy-in into your business as well because they'll feel so valued. Yeah. And they will have gained so much. So I do think that long-term strategy for influencers is definitely the prominent option, but short-term may have a place, if it is a specific campaign, you know, you see a lot of bigger businesses who will use ma macro influencers for something very short and specific with a campaign. Um, but I think the value for them is definitely much less. Yeah, you may have that wider audience reach, but I think it's just not gonna give quite as much as that long-term relationship would give.

Alvin - [51:03 - 52:24]

Yeah, I think it, you have to treat it a lot like, you know, if I was advising, I'd say, you know, treat it as a campaign so you know, outlay what your objectives are no matter what. So what is it you want to achieve as a business? And so, which whether you're working with an influencer, internal or external, they're fully aware and they're signing up to what it is that you want to try and achieve. And then I don't think it's out. The question to then quantify that, so look at the current metrics that you're currently getting or you know, what your attribution is currently happening with. If we take social media specifically, what is your current average rate of engagement? What are your current impressions reaching, you know, what are, is your followership, how is your followership growing at the moment? So you've got a benchmark to start with. And obviously if you are using an influencer to then grow those channels and to grow those metrics, you can then say, well, because we're using you and we can see what your, your current audience numbers are at and what, you know, the kind of engagement you're getting on your content, we then expect to kind of see this kind of growth or, or you know, you can try and put some sort of percentages so everyone can be accountable. So you know that, you know, obviously the byproduct is gonna be content, which is great and we can, as part of the longer term campaign, we know that can be using, uh, be used. But in terms of kind of how do you measure it specifically, I, I, like I said, yeah, put, put the metrics in place and so we can quantify it and then we can track it accordingly to really make sure we everyone's getting the most out of the time spent.

Romi Badaloo - [52:24 - 53:16]

Yeah, I second that. I think establishing what good looks like in terms of your, um, organic marketing content and performance and then comparing that with, um, using that as the benchmark for the influencers content, as you say. Um, and also remembering to make sure influencers use tracking links. If your, um, one of your objectives is something, a metric like driving traffic to a website or a white paper or a webinar so that you can look at and get actual numbers. Yeah. And see, okay, this piece of content is what drove or this person, um, drove this amount of views or downloads or subscriptions, et cetera. Um, so that you can attribute it to, um, their specific campaigns.

Tamsin - [53:16 - 53:49]

Yeah. Yeah. Going off that, it was quite a fun thing. We had a webinar campaign going on and we actually used it as a competition with ourselves spoke. They all had individual u t m tracking links and then it, they were therefore more sort of inclined to start boosting their own profiles on LinkedIn using these links and then promoting the webinar. And that was all. Oh, I love that. Yes, it was good fun because some people are reluctant to post on their LinkedIn, but as soon as you add a little, you know, competitive edge people for some reason, especially in sales, more inclined to do it.

Alvin - [53:49 - 53:50]

what was the prize?

Tamsin - [53:50 - 54:04]

What was the prize for, for the most, I didn't even need to give them a prize, it was just But that's right, right. Playing On the right psychology, knowing the personality type of the average salesperson and then getting them more involved.

Romi Badaloo - [54:04 - 54:16]

As soon as you introduce a leaderboard or any type of competition, it really drives the drives a lot more, um, incentive for people. Definitely.

Tom Gatten - [54:16 - 54:32]

Interesting. That's a very good idea. And it's not just like, you are not ranking them on how many times you've posted what you, if with a tracking link, you're ranking them on how much web traffic they're driving. Yeah. Or so that's, that's, so that's really incentivizing them, as you say, longer term to build their networks. Yeah. So then they'll find it much easier.

Romi Badaloo - [54:32 - 54:36]

They'll have to be creative about how to get, get more signups. So.

Joaquin Dominguez - [54:36 - 54:45]

Well, thank you so much for all of your ideas. Uh, this has been a very nice conversation. I hope you have enjoyed,